Yesterday, I was with Matthew at his toddler art class. The attendance is come when you want and pay $5. We are regulars because Matthew loves art. One other lady with her son is also a weekly fixture. She and I are both pregnant.
Yesterday, another lady and her adorable little girl joined us. She joked that she felt out of place among the bellies. The other mother remarked that it was time for her to have another. To that she made a general announcement to the room “Oh no! You see, I have three, so I am done!” At first, I thought she was expecting the “Gasp, three kids?” reaction, so I just smiled inwardly to myself. However, afterwards is where it got a bit awkward, and I know everyone can relate. She went on to say her husband got himself “taken care of”.
In the title, I asked, “what do you do”, but that is a rhetorical question. I am sure every one (except Erik maybe) just nods, smiles and starts counting the minutes before it is time to leave.
The conversation went on where everyone shared their sterilization stories, if not of them, people they knew. The other pregnant lady remarked that she thinks she would be too afraid to do something so permanent. The only thing I added to the conversation was the reply “yeah, I wouldn’t”.
Crickets.
I think I am not alone in how baffling it is that people are so willing to speak about their contraceptive choices in such public forums. I mean, even without getting into the details of “we use NFP” or whatever, just making the statement “Oh no, I’m done! chuckle, chuckle” seems like such a bizarre, personal sentiment to announce among strangers. The first thing I read into it is ‘oh, these kids drive me nuts-you think I want more like them?” I really don’t mean to make the harshest assumption, and I know they are being “light”, but honestly, that is what I read mostly because I don’t know them. The other reason why I get this is people usually offer this information-I don’t ask because my mindset is never really in an “I’m done” place. I’ll be with other parents talking about the weather or whatever and hear “Wow, that’s some family you got! I wanted more, but then my kids drove me nuts and two was enough.”
“Oh”
Every time I get out in the real world, I am so baffled not by how common contracepting is, but how abnormal and counter cultural it is not to have thoughts of limiting your family size on the forefront of your mind. I am not accusing people of being ‘obsessed”, but it has become so common to talk about limiting family size, devices, prescriptions etc in the parking lot when I don’t even have these conversations with my mother. Why is that?
Why has it become acceptable for people to offer unsolicited advice about too many children, but never offer unsolicited advice about how to fix my van for cheaper? The second one is too personal I think.
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IKWYM. Last week I was talking with a woman I’d met that day. The topic turned to kids, and she went on at some length about how she was Done — and she’d known me for less than thirty minutes! And of course she asked me — someone whom she barely knew — if I was Done as well, in the same tone of voice as if she were asking if I preferred tea or coffee. I was flabbergasted!
I always feel sorry for those people’s children when right in front of them their own parents act repulsed at the idea of having more children. And often these are the very same parents who won’t say “no” to their children for fear of damaging their self-esteem. Makes me want to bang my head on a wall.
I think I am not alone in how baffling it is that people are so willing to speak about their contraceptive choices in such public forums.
You’re not alone.
The armchair psychologist in me wonders if this is such a common tendency because maybe, deep down inside, people suspect contraception is wrong, but that by speaking to others about their decision to practice it, they’re implicitly seeking validation, and even approbation; in other words, they’re seeking have any private doubts assuaged.
I’ll admit I’m shooting from the hip on this one, but the thought has crossed my mind.
The only thing I added to the conversation was the reply “yeah, I wouldn’t�.
Funny you should mention this, as I had a somewhat similar experience two days ago at the grocery store.
After my cashier (a teenage girl) had rung up my items, and while I was waiting to pay for them, she remarked to another cashier (also a teenage girl), “My friend came out of the closet today. He’s bi. I’m so proud of him!”
As you said in the title of this post, “What do you say in these scenarios?”
I didn’t say anything, and afterward wondered from a prudential standpoint what, if anything, I could have possibly said, especially considering it was a conversation I overheard, and not one that I was a part of.
Instead, as I left, I said some silent prayers for the girl and her friend that they would come to appreciate the beauty of the virtue of chastity and the theology of the body.
That’s funny — just today I was thinking about a woman I met at a barbecue who had had a traumatic birth with her first child and told me (she kind of whispered) that she and her husband were using condoms because she was afraid to get pregnant again just yet. Now, we had been in the same room once or twice but we’d barely if ever spoken. And the hosts of the barbecue were Catholic NFP teachers. Her admission was clearly in the context of us both being devout Catholics. I don’t know, maybe the subject of NFP had come up already. But earlier today I was thinking about how I always assume other people know what they are doing socially and I am no judge of normal chitchat — but confessing your mortal sins to a virtual stranger (and not even online!) standing next to a table of barbecue food at someone else’s house does seem a little outside the usual boundaries. In light of that, thinking it may have been guilty conscience and/or approval seeking, I wish I’d known the right thing to say and not just “listened.” At least, I don’t remember saying anything about how NFP could be reliable enough etc. etc.
I am one of those people who goes around telling total strangers, “I`m done! DONE! DONE!”
I don`t know why others do it, and I can only speak for myself, but it has nothing to do with kids being too much trouble — it has everything to do with never wanting to put my aging, scarred body through the pregnancy/birth/breastfeeding/PPD routine, ever again.
I am a classic extrovert (which is a nice way of saying, I`m friendly, talkative, and BIG-MOUTHED), and I am not ashamed of feeling the way I do about family planning. There are certainly people I would not discuss such things around, and it entirely depends on who they are, and the context. But if I were between two pregnant bellies discussing having more children, I would have no qualms about identifying myself as “DONE.”
Isn`t the question, “Why not have another baby?” just as personal? And yet total strangers ask me that all the time! People who`s names I don`t even know suggest it! For all they know, I could want one, but I could be having medical problems, or marital problems — why is it okay to ask strangers that?
And Ro, the Catholic woman you describe sounds as if she was looking for a confessor. Maybe listening, and neither condemning nor supporting her, was the right thing to do, as she sorts it out for herself.
Isn`t the question, “Why not have another baby?” just as personal?
I think it’s the same conversation. Sometimes the reason for not having another baby could be a painful experience with infertility, or the things you mentioned. It’s a private matter.
Come to think of it, the majority of the times I proclaim, “I`M DONE!” are in direct response to someone saying to me, “Why not have another baby?”
Also, regarding the “gasp factor,” in Japan, people really did gasp when we said we had three kids. But when my parents lived for a while in uber-Catholic Omaha, families of four kids or more were the norm there. It depends entirely on demographics.
And commenting on any of this is a matter of people not minding their own business or sharing too much personal information — sometimes innocently, but sometimes judgmentally.
Once an in-law of an in-law asked me if I was going to have another and wasn’t it about the right time, based on my son’s age. This was someone whose daughter had announced to a birthday party full of strangers and near-strangers that she was seeking fertility treatment. I guess the extroversion gene was so strong in both of them that it overcame any awareness the mother may have had of fertility problems (which thus far we have been blessed not to experience, but I don’t go assuming about others). The daughter had also, post-fertility problems, pushed past an evasive answer about childbearing plans for a yes or no.
Meanwhile I was pregnant at the time this nosy lady asked, about 6 weeks, and not telling everyone. I didn’t lie but I didn’t directly answer her question. When we met again by chance at a grocery store a few months later and she asked how far along I was she was like “So you were already pregnant!” Quick arithmetic skills.
Nosy daughter isn’t speaking to us over something else, and most of the people I socialize with are religious Catholics or at least sensitive, so we’ve thus far avoided questions about whether we’re “done” (it’s “time” again; yay for the people here knowing it’s none of your business why I’m not pregnant yet!) , or will we be trying for a girl or whatever.
I think there is also the shame factor. Some people are ashamed to have too many kids. Or ashamed at the thought that someone might think that they are considering having what might be considered to be too many kids. After all, it is the trend these days to be “earth-friendly” and avoid having more than one or two children. That is surely why many people are so quick to say I’m done. Why do people even bring up the topic at all? I don’t know… Surely in many cases, for similar reasons, but also out of curiosity as to why, when in this day and age we have contraception, would anyone NOT want to limit kids… after all, it’s a lot easier to have just one or two, a mother can “have a life” outside of home once the kids are in school, and most importantly, in our consumerist society, it costs a lot less, especially when you want the best toys, the best clothes, etc, for your kids and when you are paying for activities for them…
or will we be trying for a girl or whatever.
You know, this is another extremely irritating comment/question. Since we had four boys in a row, people keep asking me if we got pregnant to “try for another girl” or if this is another boy, are we going to try for a girl. Don’t get me wrong, I would love a girlie this time, but I don’t plan my family around that. Moreso, I hate being put on the spot where I feel like I have to explain that to people.
I HATE this question — because I am probably, God-willing, never gestating again, although I would love to birth another child.
I was so desperately sick with hyperemesis last time I don’t dare risk my life again (can anyone say “grave and serious reasons?”)
We are using NFP (a good means for a good end ie. preserving my life) and people either badger us to have more or to “get fixed.”
Grrrrr…. having to explain HG to one set of people, and Theology of the Body to the other gets really, really annoying.
What do you do?
You look at her and ask, with a quizical expression, “tell me, what is it like being married to a eunuch?”
What do you do?
You look at her and ask, with a quizical expression, “tell me, what is it like being married to a eunuch?”
Erik,
You did seee in the entry that I commented you are probably the only one who knows what to say right away.
A eunuch? Some of us would LOVE to be married to eunuchs.
Sigh….
Yesterday husband asked me what I wanted for my birthday, and I told him, “a vasectomy for you.”
But I`m not holding my breath.
… and some of us would like to NOT be married to eunuchs. When all you can think about is “it’s all empty, worthless, sex…” it doesn’t make one want to have much part of it.
That`s true, Coucoumelle — I`m speaking only for myself. If that`s really how you feel about it, then I understand why you would act differently.
It`s hard for me to imagine how sex with my husband could ever be “empty” or “worthless,” but that`s only how I feel.
Maybe you can clear up a question, I have, why is it that when it is the woman who wants no more, she asks the guy to get a vasectomy? Not that you do this, but some of the guys in the meeting my husband went to were accompanied by the girlfriends to make sure they went and got it done. One of the guys fainted and all the doctor was doing was talking about it! No way in h*ll would my DH be able to force me to get myself fixed.
Hmmmm. I hope the girlfriends of your husband`s friends accompanied their men for moral support, and not to force them into something. My own husband is very squeamish and is dead-set against having a vasectomy (he`s not Catholic, so he`s against it only for physical, not theological, reasons), but I would never pressure him into one. I`ve made my wishes known, he`s made his wishes known, and that`s that — we both respect what the other decides in regards to their own body.
As for why a vas is preferable to a tubal ligation — it`s minor surgery vs. major surgery, plus it`s FAR more effective. Did you know that due to the nature of fallopian tissue, it`s possible to get pregnant after a tubal ligation? That (and the costs, which our insurance won`t cover) is what stopped me from getting one.
I am one of those people who goes around telling total strangers, “I`m done! DONE! DONE!”
But why? That’s what I don’t understand. It’s none of their business!
If someone were to ask you such a question, the appropriate response would be some variation of “Mind your own beeswax.” So why are people volunteering this information? And to casual acquaintances or even strangers?
To me, this is as more a question about manners and dignity and personal boundaries. There are some questions that just shouldn’t be asked, and some information that doesn’t need to be offered.
I think “need” is the key word — the information needn`t be offered, but it needn`t be kept to onself, either, if the individual is comfortable sharing it (and this applies to a lot of things — not just family plans).
I generally don`t mind telling people I`m “done,” but as I said above, there are times I don`t share this information, based on the circumstances. I just smile and shake my head.
I know couples who go around proclaiming that they want a big family, even though it`s no one`s business but their own. They feel comfortable sharing this, just as I feel comfortable sharing the fact that “I`m DONE.”
It is never my intention to make others ncomfotable (which is why I don`t always say it), nor is any judgement implied (i.e., “I`m DONE — you should be done, too”), though I don`t doubt that such judgemental people exist.
When people ask me how much things cost, whether the shirt on my back or our apartment in Tokyo, I almost always tell them, too. It`s just me.
It is never my intention to make others uncomfotable
But that is when they do such interesting things!
Of course I am being half serious, but when I find a work of art or music that I like, it is generally because there is something that initially creates unease. Same with my closest friends, most of whom were people I took an almost instant dislike of at first. Not all. Some, I hit it off with right away, but most of the friends who have remained close for decades, at first there was something about them that bugged the kee-rap out of me.
Of course being abrasive has a huge advantage: it prevents friendships with high maintenance people. I allow only one of those, and the spot is taken, so the rest of the crybabies, whiners, constant-need-for-afirmation folks, and their assorted ilk, will just have to go elsewhere. If someone asks me if they look fat, my first instinct is to tell the truth.
To me, this is as more a question about manners and dignity and personal boundaries. There are some questions that just shouldn’t be asked, and some information that doesn’t need to be offered.
That is the question. Why has something so private become such a common subject?
That is the question. Why has something so private become such a common subject?
Because sometimes it’s the only thing two strangers have in common? I think also it clears the air about fundamental questions when meeting new people. Do they agree with my view of the world or not? Declaring you had yourself “fixed” after two babies is a pretty clear indicator of your view of life: “Children are cute, but often troublesome and pregnancy is really inconvenient. My life and my free time and maybe my career are at least as important as those kids of mine. No, I’m not a sentimental girly girl, I’m a tough modern woman who knows how to make practical decisions! So there!”
My current answer is, “Am I done? I don’t know. We’ll have to wait and see what God has planned for us. Right now my head says No, but my heart says Yes. Just have to wait and see.” Our youngest, #4, is 8 months old and our first boy. 🙂
Isn`t it a bit presumptuous to assume that all of us who say we`re “done” are “done” for the same reasons, or even similar reasons?
Maybe pregnancy is a little more than “inconvenient” for some people? Maybe love of “free time” has nothing to do with it? (In our case, it doesn`t, because I`ve tried — totally unsuccessfully — to get my husband to agree to adopt another one.)
In other words, if I ever meet you and say, “I`m DONE” to you, you would think I`m declaring I`m “not a sentimental girly-girl but a tough modern woman.”
Fair enough — but why not get to know people first? The “we`re done” crowd is much more dissimilar than you think, just as people who have large families do so for all different reasons.
Because sometimes it’s the only thing two strangers have in common? I think also it clears the air about fundamental questions when meeting new people. Do they agree with my view of the world or not?
I don’t know, I have a hard time with the notion that who I am mostly revolves around my family planning practices. There are people that I do not agree with…actually there are very few people I agree with on everything, some of those issues are big ones, some are minor. While having a strong opinion on being open to life is part of who I am, I don’t want people to some me up in five seconds that this is who I am. Just like I love being a Mom and I am very proud of my family, but who I am doesn’t start and stop there.
Likewise, I would hate to think of someone that I just meet in terms of “oh, them, they only have one child…”
I guess the question we’re all getting at isn’t so much: “Why is this public business now instead of personal?” as “Since when has the number of kids in one’s family become the indication of what kind of people they are?”
I know a few people with 4 or more kids in their family around me. On one soccer team, there was a boy from a family of 9 kids. The other soccer team has a family of 6 kids and one of four. (Not including ours) Just down the street lives a family of 6 kids. My mid-wife had seven kids. When she was seeing me for my fifth, she was also seeing someone else for her fifth. From what I can see, non ofthese people are very religiouos at all. (except mayb ethe mid-wife) Of course non of these people probably think the same of me. I have come to realize that there are people out there who just LIKE kids. And they often happen to be the type who breastfeed, co-sleep, home-birth etc, etc,… but not always. Sometimes, they just like kids. Some of them like kids so much, they even adopt some, but continue having more of their own!
And then of course, there are those who would like more, but can’t have more…
Perhaps, “I’d rather keep these things to myself thanks,” when someone asks you about your plans.
Perhaps, “I’m not sure I really wanted to know that, ” when someone is giving us too much personal information.
I can’t stand it when people I don’t know start telling me about their reproductive life. Why would I be interested?
With close friends it’s a bit different.
Mind you, I’ve never actually tried either of those responses! I just can’t seem to do it!
“Why is this public business now instead of personal?”
I dunno, Coucoumelle, that’s the question I’m still stuck on.
Now this “my business” “your business” bit is a bit troublesome. If you are one of our subjects, your business is our business. And since we are your emperor, our business is also your business, even though you might not be entitled to know all of the details of it.
I`m not sure at all that it`s a recent thing.
My late great-aunt, who was a devout Catholic until the last decade or so of her life, wanted a big family, but after having one daughter she was unable to carry to term for some unknown reason — she had miscarriage after miscarriage (this was in the 1940`s and 50`s). I remember her telling me about all the things people would say to her about their own reproductive choices (including friends who had illegal abortions back then), and some people would also think nothing of asking why her daughter was an only child if she was “really Catholic” — all of which she said hurt her very deeply.
I think it`s human nature that some people talk about everything and some people talk about nothing, and some people don`t want to HEAR everything. Being around a perfect mix of people with your exact same sensibilities all the time is impossible, so it`s up to the individual to draw the boundaries. I`m on the talkative side, but if someone says something to me like, “I’m not sure I really wanted to know that,” I get the hint and shut up.
Whenever someone tells me that they are going to get “fixed” I look at them with deep sympathy and say, “I am so sorry to hear that. Have you ever thought about Natural Family Planning instead?” I put it back on them AND I am deeply sorry. They are so shocked they usually A)hang up the phone, or B) leave immediately.
I had a terrible time with my pregnancy, labor, and first year with my daughter. If I had not believed the Church’s teachings I would have sterilized myself, too. THANK God I am a practicing Catholic, because the rough times don’t last forever. I also love what NFP has done for my marriage and relationship.
I come from a birth control/sterilized family and trust me, L, the impact birth control/sterilization has on a marriage is HUGE. I don’t know ONE NFP family that is broken or even UNHAPPY, yet I DO know MANY birth control/sterilized couples that are on spouse #2 or 3. Those numbers say a lot to me.
How CAN spouses deny a MAJOR part of who they are and expect there not to be an impact? I will give you this much of me to you, but NOT this part? Selfishness does NOT end in the bed alone, it finds its way in other areas of the spousal relationship.
I don`t know, Radical Catholic Mom — I`m truly glad it all works for you, but I`m simply unwilling to have another baby. And it`s very true that isn`t the only “selfish” decision I`ve made in my marriage: my husband didn`t want me to go to graduate school, either — he was quite adamant about that. But I did, anyway. He didn`t really want me to be a working mother, either — he wanted to come home to homecooked meals. I agree — my selfishness does NOT end in the bed alone, and I would personally have it no other way, in my particular marriage. Fortunately, you`re not the one who has to be married to a selfish wife like me — he is, and he seems to like it now. 🙂
Cin,
That is exactly why I’m done with natural births, though I lacked your courage in avoiding the tubal. After two bouts of severe HG, I was just absolutely terrified. Thank God for Confession, and I rarely talk about the tubal any more, except when something like this comes up.
I wrote in detail about the bouts on my blog a while back (early October, if you go to look for it). But the NFP families (and especially the Providential families who use absolutely nothing) have a hard time understanding why we aren’t even thinking of trying to have more children. I’m now, with the exception of one family who has one child (and lucky to have him!) the smallest family at our homeschool co-op. Sometimes, I feel out of place. Sometimes, the announcements of new pregnancies is painful. Gosh, there was a week when I already knew three women expecting (two at the co op and my sister) when two more moms at the co op announced they were expecting! And then, just recently, another! Good golly!
For thsoe who havne’t dealt with that kind of thing, please remember us HG mothers in your prayers because it can be so very difficult.
There seems to be a serious misconception that NFP=more babies. L & Christine the Soccer Mom, the Church does not say that you have to have as many children as God gives, although if you are open to that that is ok. The Church says that couples have the right AND responsibility to decide how many you can realistically have. You both may have grave reasons. Those reasons are between you, your spouse and God.
HOWEVER, the end NEVER justifies the means. Which means, while you may have VERY legitimate reasons to NOT have another child, you cannot commit a mortal sin to avoid that child.
C the Soccer Mom: We are human. We get scared. We fail. That is the beautiful part of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. God loves & forgives us even in our fear and weakness.
L: I have one child and I use NFP. I know that MOST Catholics NEVER receive good information on Natural Family Planning so they assume NFP is the same as the guestimation rythm method.
Most of us are selfish to some degree, right? I was not saying that Not having a baby is selfish. You misunderstood. I said that sterilizing yourself is selfish, if that is indeed what you chose to do. I really recommend that you educate yourself on Natural Family Planning. It is a moral way of avoiding or obtaining pregnancy without withholding yourself from your spouse. It also forces communication between spouses. I have had friends, who in their ignorance, chose sterilization. When they had a conversion experience, they undid the surgery and now practice NFP.
Have you read the Church’s teachings on this subject? For me, it was one of the reasons I changed my mind on this topic.
The Church says that couples have the right AND responsibility to decide how many you can realistically have.
Again, I don’t think the Church says you are required to use NFP. I am not saying you have to be a Providentialist, I just am not sure using NFP is a requirement of being a married Catholic…It’s back to that you, your spouse and God thing, no?
“Again, I don’t think the Church says you are required to use NFP. I am not saying you have to be a Providentialist, I just am not sure using NFP is a requirement of being a married Catholic…It’s back to that you, your spouse and God thing, no?”
Of course it is not a requirement, but Pope JPII had quite a bit to say about responsibility and #of children. The point is that L appears to be under the misconception that if she does not sterilize herself she HAS to have more children. Her perception is incorrect. She can MORALLY not have any more children, she just cannot do it by immoral means.
I believe this is a conversation in which I cannot actively participate, because, as they say, I`ve made my bed, and am now lying in it (quite comfortably, in fact).
I`ve read both Humanae Vitae and Theology of the Body. I`ve studied NFP extensively, but choose not to rely on it alone, since as I get older, my body is much less predictable.
And I am under no “misconceptions” (no puns intended!) — I realize that I am not required to have any more children per se, but nonetheless, I choose to do all I can to avoid another pregnancy. Short of abstinence, that is — I would do that, too, but I doubt my husband would agree. 🙂
L,
I am sorry I assumed you were ignorant of the Church’s teachings.
You mentioned you suffered from PPD. I, too, suffered from PPD & it is one of THE major reasons my husband & I are unsure about having another child. I can hear the pure relief in your voice & I can relate to it.
Since you are an educated Catholic I wish you would accept the Church’s teachings on this matter, even though you & your husband made the decision you did.
Well, RCM, thanks for your concern, but it`s not likely — I`m on the outermost edges of the Church, and my husband is non-Catholic and honestly kind of anti-Christian. I may be a dissenter, but at least I try my best to understand exactly what it is I`m dissenting from — and I try not to sow more dissent, by going around claiming that my views are compatible with being devout. I fully understand that they are not!