Curt Jester has a bit on Feministe's reaction to Bishops Yanta's letter on modesty.
As always, I ask the question, why does she give a s*&t what we believe? It is not her culture or her belief. I always find it funny how in the time of "celebrating diversity", the very notion of another group believing that a woman should command respect from men rather than simply be leered at as a sex object is so offensive to them. But hey, when you deal with people who are obsessed with "me and my body", it is hard for them to grasp the notion that nobody is talking to them. This is a letter for Catholics, it is not about them and their therapy.
She also has an entry where she takes task to Wholesome Wear swimsuits. Three years ago, I made one for RoseyPosey that summer. Peony and Greg Popcak in a funny rendition of an old Wendy's commercial thought it was a bit much (the comments sadly did not import from blogger, nor did the picture of RoseyPosey in her swimsuit). At that time, I was a bit more on the modesty-obsession train. I have calmed down a bit as I found personally, it became an obsession in and of itself that hindered, not helped my faith. Stepping out from the outside and seeing the people who are really big into this issue, it boggles my mind how people fail to see good qualities in a person simply because they are wearing jeans.
Likewise, I cannot stand hearing the polar opposite: "I wear nice, comfortable shorts and baggy tee shirts and that is modestly appropriate for everyone!"No it's not. Some people do not feel comfortable like that (amd some need a dose of What Not To Wear). The Catholic Church has yet to put out any specific guidelines about what to wear, they just ask for good judgement and to purposely not to dress a manner that is titillating. Simply put, women are allowed to have their own flava (which is what baffles me about Feministe-I would think it would be a concept a feminist would grasp most). I really liked dressing modestly. There is something very freeing and comfortable about it. I also like fashion though, so I just try to blend the two when possible. Sometimes one side wins out more over the other.
Realistically though, fashion these days is ridiculous. It does not cover enough. Don't take my word for it, look around. The majority of women/tweens/teens who are dressed in what the current trends are do not look flattering, but uncomfortable. How many times do you see girls adjusting their low-cut pants and high top shirts when they move? And what about the term "muffin tops". Having love handles sticking out over your jeans is so common there is cute terminology for it? Yeesh. How many bra straps do we see sticking out of tops because the fashions do not lend themselves to pratical undergarments that women have at home in their drawer? Practicality and comfort have been lost to imagined "sexiness". Sexy does not look sexy when it looks like you are trying way too hard.
And swimsuits, I'm sorry, but even in my heathen days, I never understood the concept that all of a sudden, it was acceptable to be in the equivalent of your underwear because you are near water. If you go to the Jersey Shore, there are a lot of people walking around that makes you wish they desperately had a Wholesome Wear suit. In stead of seeing a lovely face or even what would be a lovely figure with a bit more clothes on, you are assaulted with the information that people need to utilise the modern marvel of bikini waxing much more often than they do.
Amen!
This isn't about what you said about people sometimes needing fashion help or whatever. Sometimes I see flabby women with the missing inch of fabric between the shirt and the pants and I also think, "You know, even if modesty *weren't* an issue, as it apparently isn't in her mind..." but it bothers me when the "modesty -- we all need to think and pray about whether we should wear dresses and skirts virtually all the time" threads on the Internet, which were of course posted by people who strongly think women should wear dresses and skirts virtually all the time, veer into general criticism of how other women dress, like are other women being pretty and feminine and polished and even stylish enough. In principle I guess if there is value to "beauty" and to etiquette then it "matters" how people dress even beyond the basics of not flashing or emphasizing body parts that should not be flashed or emphasized. But I just think people should lay off even thinking about whether other women in their homeschooling group or down the street or wherever are being sufficiently pretty and feminine, because of all the things that a lot of people out there are struggling to fix in their lives, I don't know how many people can highly prioritize the effort and expense of coordinating a wardrobe of not only modest but stylish, flattering, highly feminine, "quality" clothes instead of high-enough-cut or long-enough and non-clingy, non-transparent shirts and skirts and dresses and maybe even some slacks from Target or yard sales or wherever. I'm not saying it may not make more sense for many people, if they can afford it, to approach clothes shopping in a more thoughtful and organized and possibly short-term-more-expensive way than my own "Okay, I stained the last shirt I could conceivably wear to church tomorrow, can we run by Target after dinner and see if there's something not too ugly with a high neckline that fits" or "Let's stop at this yard sale, I see a rack of clothes and an overweight woman in a lawn chair" methods. But those are often the fall back after what little time and money I can afford on the modest-attractive-skirts-and-dresses-for-fat-people yield no results. I don't know, it seems like a lot of the things people propose on the Internet are these "if the world were perfect everyone would..." notions (often followed by what must be seen as a highly necessary tsk-tsking example of someone the writer knows who fails to live up to that standard.) Hope I didn't go too far off topic.
ro,
Forgive me as I am tired from work, but I am not sure I understand what you are saying. I *think* you are saying is often the "to be modest" or "to be more mainstream" debate ends up in delvolving into a debate where vanity sort of wins out. I had not thought of that.
When I think about things like modesty, my thoughts obsess about standards I hold for myself, not ones (besides my children of course) that I obsess about for others. I will see someone who shockingly seems innappropriatly attired and think "um...wow..." but I see people in the modesty movement that sum up everything about a person's character based on their skirt length or if they wear short sleeves in summer. To me, that is taking religion into something not so spiritual.
It did not occur to me really that I was doing the same thing with being fashionable. But I think for me, my sentiments are the same. Most people who walk around fit the description you described-finding nice clothes on a budget that fit well, and do not look like hoochie-mama attire. This is old news in the world of women's fashion. For the most part, people women, except in Mahattan, do not walk around looking like fashion plates. But I personally (at the expense of having rotten cyber fruit thrown at me) think all people (men and women alike) have to adhere to a certain standard of looking neat, clean, presentable etc. Again, I consider this perhaps more strongly for myself. Once in a while you meet with someone in their attempt to look modest, look so dowdy that your thoughts keep straying back to sending them to "What Not to Wear", or the polar opposite-if you are in the middle of Hicksville Upstate NY, and someone walks into Mass soo incredibly trendy, despite trying not to notice, your thoughts stray to "where is she from that she dresses like that? And how can she walk so comfortably in those heels?" (I used the second example to illustrate that it can go both ways).
Again, I guess this has more to do with the standards I hold for myself. I think it is just important that we make concerted efforts to not be too revealing (which I think is a bit of a challenge with current fashions), to not be overly dowdy, and too look presentable and not shock people either good or bad with my physical presence. Like I said, that's my flava. How to do so is up to the individual. Hey, what do I know? There was one saint, St. Rose of Lima who rubbed pepper on her face to detroy her beauty, and one saint, St. Gianna who constantly wore the latest fashions from Paris. We all find our own way.
No, (sorry, I am not a very clear writer,) what I was trying to describe wasn't really something I saw in your post. I think your point was pretty clear. How I got there from your post was more of a tangent from your "Stepping out from the outside and seeing the people who are really big into this issue, it boggles my mind how people fail to see good qualities in a person simply because they are wearing jeans." It just made me think of how modesty discussions I've read (I guess fortunately, not heard in person yet) seem to veer well into how other women are not making themselves attractive enough generally, rather than assuming the best about a person who looks "frumpy" -- that she may have other priorities that are taking up the time, $ and energy that would be devoted to sprucing up aesthetically, and that really it is such a matter of individual judgment how to use time and resources that except in egregious cases you would think it'd just be a "keep your eyes on your own work" thing and not "tsk, her poor husband." I mean it's not a potato-sacks-with-grease-stains-reduce-morale thing, but seemingly a really high standard that's been added to the campaign to encourage women to better Catholic mothers out there -- like "be lovely. Be stressed out about it when you aren't." I don't want to quote directly from anywhere else, of course.
It just made me think of how modesty discussions I've read (I guess fortunately, not heard in person yet) seem to veer well into how other women are not making themselves attractive enough generally, rather than assuming the best about a person
That bothers me too in general with all these discussions. The notion that unless someone is really drastically immodest, dirty etc etc, people never seem to assume that someone is trying their best.
That is what bothers me even more about the feminist angle discussed in this post. Who cares if we dress modestly wear Wholesome Wear swim suits or one pieces or whatever?
ro,
Like those endless threads that take homeschooling mothers to task for wearing the denim jumpers with the white sneakers, because they're not being stylish enough?
Pansy, I may have teased you about the Wholesome Wear suit but you made some great points about how practical it was -- how it protected Rosey-Posey's skin and how she didn't have to go running for a cover-up every time she wanted to go to the drinking fountain.
And it's funny -- why are Wholesome Wear suits "frumpy" but surfer-style swimsuits perfectly okay? Half the kids in Hambet's swim class wear the surfer-style suits, and in some ways they cover even more than the old-fashioned tank-and-short outfits with the stripes from Edwardian days.
Hmmm, I've wanted to send a few people the "What not to wear" way myself, but mostly it wasn't the ones wearing the frumpy stuff, (it doesn't bother me on other people) it's mostly those trying to wear clothes that just don't fit, as in too many folds of skin showing. As a hairdresser, I tend to want to send even more to the hairdresser's chair... but in general, these are thing that don't bother me so much. Until the internet, I hadn't come into contact with any groups that were into all that super-modest stuff either.
I also tend to think that different women, depending on their size and shape, should wear different things. Because two women could be wearing the exact same shirt and not have the same effect at all. For example, if I wear to wear one of those tube tops, I'd look like I were showing a whole lot of skin because of the football player shoulders. It would be really noticable. Whereas my much smaller sister could probably pull it off without anyone really even noticing much.
I also think that there are certain places for wearing certain things. You wouldn't wear shorts and a t-shirt to a classy restaurant. Swimsuits and (for men) no tops are for the beach and the pool. In places like these, a little midriff won't bother me, unless, again, it's worn in a way that really calls for attention, but these are things that, (like a shirtless man) shouldn't be worn to, say, Mass.
What is important is not so much WHAT you are wearing as HOW you are wearing it and what it's overall effect is.
And even feminists can agree on that. After all, they (normally) hate the idea that women sell themselves off as pieces of meat to men too. And meat is not sexy. I think a sexy woman is one who, above all, feels good about herself and lets it show.
And even feminists can agree on that. After all, they (normally) hate the idea that women sell themselves off as pieces of meat to men too
That is thd old feminist movement. The new one is the exact opposite.